Panel on- Teaching Stroke Changes: When and How (2010)


Male Speaker: We are starting here in a couple of minutes. Joe is on his way, he was doing some testing over at the YMCA, I just talked to him on the phone. And I just recruited [Indiscernible] [0:00:21] is going to come in and help us on the panel. Basically what we are trying to achieve here is in terms of stroke changes. First is we swim our swimmers underwater, we can kind of identify the mistakes that they are making. Now how do we integrate those changes? How do we make those changes? What is the best way to do it, the most effective way? I know all of us have had the experience, I know I did, this is kind of why I learned this that you have kind of figure out a way to help people change their strokes. You work for your kind of kid all season, maybe keeping his wrist up there and his elbow up in the front part of the stroke, and you work on it all season long, you work on it all season long, and then it’s like the kid never changes, he’s an idiot; what’s wrong that guy? And then the kid would take a break, let’s say, a season, they’d take two or three weeks off, they come back and all of a sudden he’s doing the stroke right. So, you realize that the kid wasn’t an idiot, I was the idiot. The things that I did after I learned that about 25 years ago, was when I started making stroke changes, I worked on the kid’s stroke for a long period of time, and then I would make him swim another stroke for usually 10 days to 2 weeks and then I would notice that the stroke change came in. Just reading a lot about motor learning and how things go and so on and so forth, you realize that it takes the brain a while to take that stuff, hardwire that stuff that you’ve taught him and if you keep trying to make the kid change and then put pressure on him to swim faster at the same time, he’s not going to be able to make the change. So, really what we are trying to achieve here is what’s the best way to take the information that we get when we look at the films and breakdown and see the mistakes, what’s the best way to make that change, what part of the season, what are your expectations, and how do you make that change. And this morning we had [Indiscernible] [0:03:02] come in and show all this [Indiscernible] [0:03:07] stuff and pointing out the different parts of the stroke; and I know that Mike has used that information, Mike Gillers at San Diego, has used that information and used it to help change kid’s strokes. I thought I’d have him came up first and talk a little bit about how he took that information in and used it to help kids change their stroke.

Male Speaker: Like Bob was mentioning, we did have G [Genadijus Sokolovas] come up this summer, he was out in San Diego, and I had a couple of kids there in town, so we had them come over and test. It was a fantastic experience because it was supposed to be a 2 hour experience of taping, review. And by the time we got done, we’re supposed to stop at 9, we go to 11, and the taping itself, it takes about half an hour but the evaluation that takes… if you get into it, it’ll take a long time, and I think it finished at three. And the kids were [Indiscernible] [0:04:24] for a few hours at the beginning, but by the end they’re calling their friends up and whatever and say, “I can’t come, I’ve got to stay here,” and they kept watching, watching, watching, watching and watching. What I found is that visual feedback is the key and we all probably know that but when you have that [Indiscernible] [0:04:45] for example, there is no question mark. It’s not the coach saying subjectively that I think it’d be better if you did X or Y. You could see it on the velocity, and when the athlete sees it on the velocity, there are no questions about, “Well, I don’t think he’s right.” So, they know what to change and could take that into the rest of the practice; that one experience had impact on those kids their entire summer; they all sort… G would tell you that, every kid will swim faster, and I don’t just believe it; that one experience made our athletes swim faster in the summer because they just had a feel for what was right and what was wrong because they could see it. That was tremendously useful and I’m doing everything in my power to have them come on a couple days during the whole season and show feedback. The best thing I think it’ll be great if you had the machine probably and you could just tape it around. Because I think there are a million different techniques that you would show on the velocity curve that would help you out. The technology has been around for a long time. It’s been around since the early 70s, it’s just never been user friendly. And now it’s starting to get out there. I think if somebody is going to revolutionize swimming I guess we are going to be able to see the real impact at those changes in stroke.

Male Speaker: Thanks, Mike. Now, those of you who had been around this sport for a while know that if you want to talk about stroke and trying news things that probably the most [Indiscernible] [0:06:27] guy to talk to is [Indiscernible] [006:29] He is always trying new stroke changes. So, it’s great when you have feedback from information that you know what the strokes should be like. Probably here’s a guy and all the strokes… and I know he’s doing some work with some stuff on breast stroke now and maybe he can specifically talk about that. But he’s a guy that sees a vision of why the strokes should be right. There is no model out there other than what’s in his head. He’s got to transfer that information to the swimmers, try different things with them and see how it works. So, maybe why don’t you just maybe come up and talk a little bit about some of the stuff you are trying in breast stroke and how you are trying [Indiscernible] [0:07:19]

Male Speaker: [Indiscernible] [007:24] see what you’re doing and maybe will grasp it. Listen, and others [Indiscernible] [0:07:41] looking, they can analyze what you think you’re seeing and lots of times you don’t hear what you are pointing out, and they hear it but they translate it differently. I had a swimmer a few years back… This is an experience [Indiscernible] [008:02] for a month or two when he first came out to [Indiscernible] [008:15] talking about technique [Indiscernible] [008:17] nothing ever changed [Indiscernible] [008:19] One time [Indiscernible] [008:23]. Suddenly he saw the video and he’s just like [Indiscernible] [008:28] changed the way I’ve seen [Indiscernible] [008:28] because everything after practice will be up in the [Indiscernible] [008:35] So, [Indiscernible] [008:43] But everybody… especially the language; and we were listening to [Indiscernible] [0:08:54] speaking in the same language. We may not be communicating with a lot of people, we are just [Indiscernible] [009:06] people that you are working with. But if you see this is what they were doing and they can visualize it, they can make the changes. I know that [Indiscernible] [0:09:23] present time, I’m really excited about this [Indiscernible] [009:33] this direction of finance [Indiscernible] [0:09:34] as well. [Indiscernible] [0:09:37] the water, the faster you go the higher the [Indiscernible] [0:09:48] comes down, so you can just swim up down the pool. I remember once making a turn [Indiscernible] [0:09:57] just play with us [Indiscernible] [010:02] in our pool, figure it out how and spend more time with a high approach. Well, [Indiscernible] [010:06] We would probably get enough of opportunity to try new things like [Indiscernible] [010:14] they started this year [Indiscernible] [0:10:17] obviously [Indiscernible] [0:10:19] next 15 minutes [Indiscernible] [0:10:22] we are going to [Indiscernible] [0:10:38] working on it. And then you can decide what you want to do and work on it. At the end of the 15 minutes [Indiscernible] [010:45] you’re going to come back [Indiscernible] [010:47] we are working on what you try, it did work or didn’t work. And this guy [Indiscernible] [0:10:54] conversation, he said [Indiscernible] [010:58]. And [Indiscernible] [011:04] a week or a couple of weeks and [Indiscernible] [0:11:05] he can’t forget about it. So, [Indiscernible] [0:11:08] a positive thing because I think, it was [Indiscernible] [011:22] with college guys, I don’t think [Indiscernible] [0:11:25] but if I get [Indiscernible] [011:28] what’s going on and then they’re trying new things [Indiscernible] [011:36] anything, was it? [Indiscernible] [011:41] rest of the time [Indiscernible] [0:11:42] stopped [Indiscernible] [0:11:43] without [Indiscernible] [011:46] action up and goes out [Indiscernible] [0:11:48] was supporting the [Indiscernible] [0:11:51] swimming competition. So, there is a very positive thing, we want to try something like that [Indiscernible] [011:58] it’s just a way… It’s like a [Indiscernible] [0:12:02] school and you haven’t talked about it and explain what’s going on. And they were just [Indiscernible] [012:12] what they are doing. So, anything [Indiscernible] [012:18] After I saw that I started doing things like that [Indiscernible] [012:22] have time to work on one thing [Indiscernible] [012:24] and all of a sudden, they found that we’re successful [Indiscernible] [0:12:31] because they are doing what they want to be doing and spending more time [Indiscernible] [0:12:35] everybody was [Indiscernible] [0:12:37] basically the guy that discover that lactic acid was a fuel, it really was. [Indiscernible] [013:11] walked out [Indiscernible] [0:13:20] what you think you need to do and [Indiscernible] [0:13:29] they all say what they thought and the others say, “Well, we have [Indiscernible] [0:13:32] bathroom, we’ll get back [Indiscernible] [013:42] So, [Indiscernible] [0:13:39] bathroom, [Indiscernible] [0:13:44] never showed up with a lesson plan [Indiscernible] [0::13:49] thing what they said [Indiscernible] [013:51] and let them do it. That’s basically what worked for them and [Indiscernible] [014:06] I think that’s a [Indiscernible] [0:14:11] great and you can have a chance [Indiscernible] [014:15] go with what you would, and [Indiscernible] [014:20] kids don’t have an interest [Indiscernible] [014:24] because their parents singed them up and they thy don’t really… [Indiscernible] [0:14:28] what you are talking about [Indiscernible] [014:31] to accomplish. And why should they worry about it? [Indiscernible] [014:34] they want something they want to accomplish [Indiscernible] [014:47] because they are going to be positively [Indiscernible] [0:14:54] idea. So, paving a way to get people to [Indiscernible] [0:15:01] helping them where they want to go [Indiscernible] [0:15:06] and be successful because [Indiscernible] [0:15:13] it makes it a lot better [Indiscernible] [0:15:15] good chance. I think [Indiscernible] [015:20] the first lesson the guy had, he did a [Indiscernible] [0:15:25] people [Indiscernible] [015:26] to understand what it is that they want and what’s [Indiscernible] [0:15:29] do something. Then they are going to figure out and do that. They got an idea about [Indiscernible] [015:36] and they don’t think they can do it. That’s [Indiscernible] [015:39] that’s not what I want and [Indiscernible] [0:15:47] opportunity to do it. It took me 15 years to do what I want but [Indiscernible] [015:58] trying to get people to [Indiscernible] [016:01] they are doing what they want to do. If you are able to communicate with [Indiscernible] [016:04] ideas of what they want to do. It’s great and it’s positive [Indiscernible] [0:16:17] working in places like [Indiscernible] [0:16:19] I think once you [Indiscernible] [016:32] swimmers [Indiscernible] [016:36] and if you’re going to help swimmers [Indiscernible] [016:40] can see it sometimes [Indiscernible] [016:41] “Okay, what are we going to do?” [Indiscernible] [016:46] you got a problem like this [Indiscernible] [016:54] classrooms [Indiscernible] [0:16:56] give them the [Indiscernible] [016:56] a lot of different [Indiscernible] [017:07]. And I think that’s a [Indiscernible] [017:12] as far as I was saying, that’s [Indiscernible] [017:15] coaching, because [Indiscernible] [017:18] to let you know what it is they want to do. Once you get an idea what you want to do[Indiscernible] [0:17:24] different ideas I [Indiscernible] [017:33] 15 years what you’re doing, find this is the same thing every year. [Indiscernible] [0:17:38] Well, I try to do something, find something new, something different as I can because that’s important, that’s what’s exciting. [Indiscernible] [017:50] is what we’re going to do this year. And [Indiscernible] [0:17:54] success. I mean, [Indiscernible] [0:17:55] chances [Indiscernible] [017:58] you’re not the same person you were last year. Different classes [Indiscernible] [018:03] was different [Indiscernible] [018:07] get the same results at [Indiscernible] [018:09] because you [Indiscernible] [018:11] and figure out if it’s worthy or not [Indiscernible] [018:21] go back but [Indiscernible] [018:26] very fortunate [Indiscernible] [018:36] was using it and [Indiscernible] [018:42] cramps and [Indiscernible] [018:52] anything [Indiscernible] [0:18:56] he was [Indiscernible] [0:19:04] 20 years ago [Indiscernible] [0:19:20] I said that’s crazy [Indiscernible] [019:32]. So, I’m talking [Indiscernible] [019:43] and I was thinking [Indiscernible] [0:19:52] I said [Indiscernible] [0:19:56] outside [Indiscernible] [0:19:58] I heard the [Indiscernible] [0:20:05] “Why is that?” [Indiscernible] [0:19:54] He said, “Well, [Indiscernible] [0:20:01]. So, as long as you put pressure outside [Indiscernible] [0:20:12] just pressing [Indiscernible] [0:20:31] image and [Indiscernible] [0:20:37] insurance and [Indiscernible] [0:20:39] inspiration [Indiscernible] [0:20:44] insurance [Indiscernible] [0:20:49] keep the pressure [Indiscernible] [020:54] so that was [Indiscernible] [0:21:03] and all of a sudden these guys are [Indiscernible] [0:21:30]. So, obviously [Indiscernible] [021:39] [Indiscernible] [0:21:41] all of a sudden [Indiscernible] [021:54] practice and [Indiscernible] [0:22:02] basically it’s just [Indiscernible] [0:22:05] exciting as I learnt [Indiscernible] [0:22:09] something that [Indiscernible] [0:22:10] something about [Indiscernible] [0:22:12] comes in my mind [Indiscernible] [0:22:18] but [Indiscernible] [0:22:24] it’s like [Indiscernible] [0:22:39] that’s make sense to me about coaching [Indiscernible] [0:22:46] to make things grow [Indiscernible] [0:22:49]. So, we [Indiscernible] [0:23:00] brothers [Indiscernible] [0:23:09] so, I tried with different things and sometimes that woks sometimes it wont [Indiscernible] [0:23:15] back and forth [Indiscernible] [0:23:27] about it [Indiscernible] [0:23:32] we don’t want to get stuck [Indiscernible] [0:23:44] often say that [Indiscernible] [0:23:49] water cushions [Indiscernible] [0:23:53] as you can [Indiscernible] [0:24:04] push in front of the line to pick up the [Indiscernible] [0:24:18]. So, basically that’s when [Indiscernible] [0:24:19] sometimes the [Indiscernible] [0:24:42] its not the [Indiscernible] [0:24:48] ask me what [Indiscernible] [0:25:04] and [Indiscernible] [0:25:12] back [Indiscernible] [0:25:19] about it [Indiscernible] [0:25:22] you cannot [Indiscernible] [0:25:23]. So the [Indiscernible] [0:25:23] moved back it the [Indiscernible] [0:25:31] best helpers and [Indiscernible] [0:25:43] in position [Indiscernible] [0:25:53] these problems are [Indiscernible] [0:26:09] powerful so they [Indiscernible] [0:26:13] you get a lot of power [Indiscernible] [0:26:21] here because there is big surface area and what that is, is just a huge wall of resistance [Indiscernible] [0:26:30]. So, we worked harder [Indiscernible] [0:26:36] into the water but you create so much drag and resistance, its basically [Indiscernible] [0:26:41] you’re working harder [Indiscernible] [0:26:47] its kind of hard [Indiscernible] [0:27:12] basically I’m trying to pressure [Indiscernible] [0:27:21] you just got to relax [Indiscernible] [0:27:24] water [Indiscernible] [0:27:30]. So I said there [Indiscernible] [0:27:50] because it just [Indiscernible] [0:27:59] just [Indiscernible] [0:28:03] if you get a chance somewhere [Indiscernible] [0:28:28] things like that [Indiscernible] [0:28:39] some progress but [Indiscernible] [0:28:49] as long as [Indiscernible] [0:28:57] strong arms and [Indiscernible] [0:28:58]. So, that’s the [Indiscernible] [0:29:03] jumping when you [Indiscernible] [0:29:06] because they have such motion that [Indiscernible] [0:29:19] on what they are doing and [Indiscernible] [0:29:25]. So I still [Indiscernible] [0:29:27] and [Indiscernible] [0:29:31] swimmer [Indiscernible] [0:29:43] better technique [Indiscernible] [0:30:00] right now [Indiscernible] [0:30:25] 10 seconds before [Indiscernible] [0:30:50] thanks to [Indiscernible] [0:31:02] surface [Indiscernible] [0:31:11] I said [Indiscernible] [0:31:15] why is [Indiscernible] [0:31:21]. Sort of [Indiscernible] [0:31:27] I was trying to [Indiscernible] [0:31:37] that’s right [Indiscernible] [0:31:58] you know why [Indiscernible] [0:32:07] – [Indiscernible] [0:33:23] was doing and I was [Indiscernible] [0:33:23] on speed [Indiscernible] [0:33:25] I don’t care win or loss [Indiscernible] [0:33:36] because [Indiscernible] [0:33:40] this is one of a [Indiscernible] [0:33:45] seconds to the [Indiscernible] [0:33:50] out numbered [Indiscernible] [0:33:53] and then I said [Indiscernible] [0:33:57] how did you do it? and he said, well, [Indiscernible] [0:34:00] realize how the swimmers made the [Indiscernible] [0:34:01] of [Indiscernible] [0:34:04] so I thought I [Indiscernible] [0:34:05] to put the spirit in [Indiscernible] [0:34:19] resistance to change but [Indiscernible] [0:34:24]. So, I was very successful [Indiscernible] [034:38] it’s obviously [Indiscernible] [0:34:40] just trying to [Indiscernible] [0:34:50]. So, let the [Indiscernible] [0:34:54]

Male Speaker: [Indiscernible] [0:34:55] sit up here because got to do some questions and answers.

Male Speaker: Fine. I just kind of like to ask these guys some questions and first of all what time of the year do they think is the best time to work in stroke changes, what time, where to work to workout and what kind of methodology is best or better; you know, we might kind of discuss what you in terms of looking at the films. We had [Indiscernible] [0:36:19] kind of discussed getting a group together and working with each other and trying new things, more of a discovery method, that’s kind of figure out if we’re going to change somebody’s stroke, what’s the best way to go about it? So, just maybe all of you just talk briefly about what time of the year that you think is the best time to make a stroke. I was also a great believer in the teachable moment, and I think Mark just talked about creating and teachable moment where you get people excited about their stroke, that’s probably the best time to teach them; but it’s just… Mike, maybe just talk about why you make your stroke changes and what kind of the work are you using them.

Male Speaker: I would say all the time as far as making changes. I mean, several weeks into the… give them a couple of weeks to get their bodies moving again. This season we’re going to try to make stroke changes. My thing with stroke changes is that, one word I have to give, it’ll be like, when I thought about it, if I ever did a talk, it would be entitled, and I always said it, a four letter word that can change a program – ‘[Indiscernible] [0:37:32]. If you have a chance to show people visually, I think everyone’s a visual learner as we said earlier and they have to see themselves. You can explain all the time about what they want to do; and I think there’s an athlete-coach disconnect a lot of times. You explain to the athlete why you need to move your hand down here, you’re crossing over. The athlete looks at their stroke, makes a… you know, “I changed.” They say, “Well he’s not saying anything to me. I must have made the change.” You as a coach standing at the pool there, you say, “He’s making no change. He’s uncoachable.” Now, you both have a total disconnect between. The athlete thinks they made a change, you as a coach think that they’re not coachable, because they can’t see themselves. So, if they see themselves swim, I think they’re going to make drastic changes and you can get to the point as a coach you need to show them the video. And you say, “Is that change?” And they say no. “Well, let’s try something new and different.” And I explained to all athletes that if it doesn’t feel completely weird, stupid the most dumbest thing you’ve ever done, you probably haven’t changed your stroke. Because I think it has to feel different. And I’ve had athletes videotaping them and I’ve given them… like I’d say, “Take it to the extreme, don’t be so… Make it bigger.” And as they come into the wall, especially in breaststroke you can hear them under their breaths saying, “That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever done;” and I showed them the video and it’s the right stroke.

And I think you have to exaggerate the change to an enormous degree to make any slight change; and the way they can see that is visually. So, one of the things that I talk to our athletes when we – mid-level program, like our program is trying to find ways to get better. My question always is “Why is she faster than this? Why are two people so different in time?” And coaches will say, “Well she’s tougher,” and I say, “Well, what makes her faster?” And that’s what exciting about some of the technology that is coming out now – is that those are the reasons why they can reteach that? And I really believe that you can; and I use the example with Dara Torres all the time. I think their skills are a lot better at 41 than they were when they’re in 32, 24, 18. And I think she changed her skills that make her… you know, I think she is one of the best freestyles in the world. It’s better than when she was 32. So, I asked our athletes, “If she can change her skills from 32 to 41, we can change our skills from 18 to 22?” And so I just try to ingrain that. It’s hard; and I think athletes, like I said, the technique comes and goes, and you just have to continually reinforce the [Indiscernible] [0:40:22] during workout. You know, something that’s easy to do, achievable type of set up – you don’t have to take them out of the pool very long, you [Indiscernible] [0:40:29] into a room and rewind the tape and you can just very quickly show them if they’re doing the skill right, or you could set it up so they can see themselves. And so, we try to really ingrain that into our athletes that you can make skill changes the whole year, and you should continue to try and improve your skills. And I think a lot of it comes down to a visual type situation; and eventually they would be able to self-coach themselves if they know the principles of what they’re trying to get through. I think that’s the major task to getting faster. Sometimes it’s not swimming their repeat faster, it’s swimming the repeat with less strokes or with better skills then moving ahead instead of continually just swimming faster and faster with worst technique. Or the technique will eventually limit their ability to go fast at the end. So, maybe they can [Indiscernible] [0:41:23] this time with one less stroke, a couple of more kicks off the wall or whatever that is that grows motor change to make an improvement, and then they can step forward to the next – you know, another time holding on to those mechanics. So, it’s an ongoing process and I echo what Bob was saying is I even change people’s skills during warm-ups at championships because a lot… some athletes that’s the only time that they’ll listen to you, you can talk… From a motor learning view point it’s probably not the time to do it; and I used to… and in the beginning I would not do it because I’ve always heard from [Indiscernible] [0:41:57] you shouldn’t be changing technique right before their biggest event. But for some athletes they have to, or right after a really bad swim – it’s the only time they’ll listen to you. And then finally they’ll change their skills; and you might be in the warm-up, playing back and forth; and I think it’s a teachable moment, like you’re talking about. So, it can occur at any time. And I think it needs to start slow but I do think you have to do great skills at high speeds obviously. I always tell our athletes that when you see those tapes in the Olympics and the World Championships underwater, they’re not swimming for the video-camera. They’re swimming to win. And so your skills have to be ingrained in the body. And we’ve all had athletes swimming in front of a video camera, I call the ‘Hollywood stroke’. They swim a stroke that they’ll never swim practice because they know that they’re being videoed. And I said, “You’ve got to swim and there’s got to be an unconscious thought,” and so it has to be a unconscious thought earlier in the year to make it an unconscious thought at the championships.

So, the best use of TiVo for example that I’ve ever done is doing race pace 50s, or say you’re doing 200 race pace 50s on a minute. You have a manager or yourself a TiVo setup that’s outside and we have a little underwater camera. As they come into the wall, you have the camera in there. You have to set for like 15 second delay, their swimming race pace 50 slides for example, they touch the wall, they come up, they take their goggles off and they could see themselves come into the wall. You say, “Make sure you use your hands and your body,” and then they say, “Okay” and then they push off on the [Indiscernible] [0:43:34] and they never do a break. And then trying at the end of the year, obviously [Indiscernible] [0:43:38] skills at race pace with great technique; and you’re still trying to give them that visual feedback. In my [Indiscernible] [0:43:46] have a TiVo for everyone so they can just always be seeing themselves swim – you know, it maybe set put on delay, they can come in, a few strokes, but that would be a nice situation. But I think it’s visual and the more visual feedback you can give them, the better it’s going to be, but it’s obviously got to be something that you can fill in your practice.

Male Speaker: [Indiscernible][0:44:11] which athletes improve and which coaches help athletes improve; and maybe, you can pass on some of the techniques you see in those athletes and those coaches used to change stroke.

Male Speaker: Yeah, sure. It definitely [Indiscernible] [0:44:35] – not only the [Indiscernible] [0:44:39] but also [Indiscernible] [0:44:39] age groups swimmers; and I see some athletes can change technique very quickly, other athletes cannot change technique. It takes several times with filming, explaining, after several months coming again, still the same technique, nothing changed. And I completely believe with some thought that Mike just told you that we ca change swimming technique any time. It is not necessarily to wait in the beginning of the season, then we’ll work on the swimming technique changes. There are some things that are very easy to change. For example, to change head position, timing of the breathing, synchronizing your kick with the core as what we discussed this morning, like we showed some videos this morning. And some other things are relatively easy to change. There are other things that we need to – a lot of time to work on. For example, how to connect better arms with the core. That’s pretty complicated skill. You’ll take a lot of time to develop the skill but the sooner you will start working on that, the better chances you will have to improve your swimmers technique. And I can give you again many examples of how we changed different swimmers. For example, with Dara Torres here, she’s a good example, very coachable, and she can work [Indiscernible] [0:46:04] the changes. She’s not afraid to change swimming technique – even several weeks before the major start of the Olympic Games. And right before Olympics, she asked me, “Can I be tested on the swim collar machine; and can you look of my technique, what I’m doing wrong underwater, why am I always lost underwater?” I don’t know if you remember here from 2007 to 2008 competitions she was [Indiscernible] [0:46:33] losing the dive and she always lost underwater – something wrong. I could hear on the machine, the test [Indiscernible] [0:46:41] underwater in San Francisco before Munich or China; and to look at your [Indiscernible] [0:46:48] underwater; that’s clearly for me that she was giving too much amplitude kicks and she was overemphasizing down kick because there was no up kick at all. So, I showed [Indiscernible] [0:46:57] So, there is definitely very short time most coaches would not advise you to do any changes, but I think it’ll be reasonable at least try to kick small amplitude, really emphasize a little bit more up kick versus down kick. So, do more kicks underwater than you’re doing now – at smaller amplitude, at higher tempo, high intensity. So, she started to do that every practice, she worked on that [Indiscernible] [0:47:25] showed some signs of improvements. Once I saw her raise in the Olympics in this special underwater part, I know that she was kicking much smaller amplitude, instead of one or two large amplitude kicks she was ding three or four small amplitude kicks. And that sure was significant. If you look at the tape back in 2008, final 2008, all the best girls in the world are swimming [Indiscernible] [0:47:55]. She should be the last one to dive. She was always outswimming all the girls but she was not good on the dives but she popped exactly the same place as the other girls; everybody was almost equal. So, she didn’t lose anything. And that shows how much attention she gives to technical details and that within a few weeks before the major competition I wouldn’t be afraid to make the changes. I don’t know their changes during the warm-up but definitely before competitions, it’s important to work. And even during the warm up there are many things that you can reinforce with your practice. For example, I also noticed that a lot of athletes swim better technique after using paddles. They’re using the paddles [Indiscernible] [0:48:38] during the warm ups, higher elbow position, better catch, better feel how to connect arm to the core and then they begin better swimming sets in practices. So, for this type of athlete, I also advise them to do a little bit more work with paddles during the warm up. Don’t be afraid to use paddles in the warm ups. That will keep more vertical [Indiscernible] [0:49:03] And as a result you’d be developing better skill and which you will be using during the race. Same thing also we discussed with Stanford University [Indiscernible] [0:49:19] Jenny Thompson, Darra Torres, Misti Hyman, [Indiscernible] [0:49:27] and many other swimmers and I advised them to use [Indiscernible] [0:49:31] during the warm ups such swimming against parachute; and I don’t know if you remember back in 2000 that [Indiscernible] [0:49:37] trials, and in 2004 these girls have been using parachutes to swim against. So, they felt certainly good because they feel the resistance and then they are pressing more and more from backwards straight one verses just dong any [Indiscernible] [0:49:47] stroke or some other kinds of things. They didn’t know too much about this S shape [Indiscernible] [0:49:55] at that time but they felt strongly that swimming against resistance during the warm up helps athletes to swim faster.

So, another good warm-up exercise is kicking in vertical position. A lot of athletes could do too large amplitude. They’re kicking [Indiscernible] [0:50:14] than from the core, and just [Indiscernible] [0:50:15] what you need to do in a horizontal position but [Indiscernible] [0:50:19] that also helps. Because you are changing your kicking technique once you are in a vertical position. So, if you kick 5 or 10 seconds just vertical, not taxing, you don’t want athletes to be tired, and then after 5 or 10 seconds [Indiscernible] [0:50:34] horizontal position. And repeat the same technique. You do it several times and eventually you are more efficient. And if you are just a little bit efficient [Indiscernible] [0:50:43] a few hundred seconds faster or fifth [Indiscernible] [0:50:49] or one hundred. And sometimes that’s enough to win the medal. So, these are my short thoughts on that.

Male Speaker: [Indiscernible] [0:50:58] just talk about maybe the experience that you’ve had with the breaststrokers [Indiscernible] [0:51:03] if you’ll be coaching a whole team and that’s what you’ll be incorporating with all of the strokes.

Male Speaker: Okay, [Indiscernible][0:51:13] you have digest what you’re doing – become natural [Indiscernible] [0:51:23] take time to back it down [Indiscernible] [0:51:33] the stroke was [Indiscernible] [0:51:46] reinforces some of the [Indiscernible] [0:52:13] to become a natural [Indiscernible] [0:52:23] first things [Indiscernible] [0:52:41]

Male Speaker: [Indiscernible] [0:54:41] championships and probably like [Indiscernible] [0:54:49] chance to go back and [Indiscernible] [0:54:55] I’m saying that we have quite a few [Indiscernible] [0:54:57] high school coaches in here. And I’m just ask each of you if you try to go back with coach [Indiscernible] [0:55:03]

Male Speaker: It’s been a long time since I’m coaching them. I think generally if your body position, I mean, I don’t think that’s rocket science, and I think a lot of us know it, I think the basic skills of what’s lacking, I would say may… when I look at athletes, the basic skill are stream lining, turns, starts, distance per stroke. And I think if we can concentrate on those things first… I would say body position; I have been strongly influenced by a man named Brent Rushall and he was here last year and he’s controversial, and I think he likes being a controversial figure but a lot of his stroke [Indiscernible] [0:55:53] if you have a chance to go on the internet, it is fantastic and it starts out with a weakened body position in every stroke. Not [Indiscernible] [0:56:01] what their arms are doing, legs are doing and then progressively adding a finish to the stroke. [Indiscernible] [0:56:10] and then the mid portion of the stroke, and then finally after [Indiscernible] [0:56:15] he starts [Indiscernible] [0:56:16] about the catch and then moving on to recovery and breathing patterns. But it’s a patient process that takes around 6 weeks or 7 weeks to do that procedure. In the years we’ve done that, the years that we follow that coaching, they have been the most successful years that we’ve had, and I think we can use that [Indiscernible] [0:56:32] in club, and there’s many different levels in the curriculum starting from the very basic skills, advancing up to the most advanced, and you could… As [Indiscernible] [0:56:44] as far as advancing your new skills. But you have to be patient. I mean, the first year I went through, that was like “Well, when are we getting to the catch?” You know, that’s the challenge – and patience mind. But by the time we’ve worked through all the skills, I realize how they were all interconnected. And I think even at the youngest levels, it’s going to take a long time, and you know the kids are going through maturation and growth process, and I think they are going to have periods of un-coordination and then progressively you can add skills so that curriculum, but I think it’s just an ongoing process. It takes a while.

But I think, have a plan starting with body position first and then… [Indiscernible] [0:57:34] and the things you’ve learned. So, if you work body position for a week, then add the finish of your stroke. We’re all anxious to start with the beginning. Have people finish their strokes, and now they are working on body position and finish. And then the next week, you think, okay, make sure your arm is underneath your body, but then you still finish in to something that worked on longer – the finish and then body position. And finally after you have gone through those three or four steps, the [Indiscernible] [058:05] is a lot easier because they are already doing all of these things well. But it’s you do that with every stroke every day. It’s not freestyle body position one week, it’s still all the strokes and you can… and then you can have your athletes… they cannot think the same thing over at practice. So, if you have, let’s take a body position in your first lap, finish, second lap [Indiscernible] [058:28] third lap and the fourth lap, let’s take your catch. So, athlete can go through the set thinking things like that. And so their thought process is not… they cannot think a body position for the entire workouts without a break; your mind doesn’t work that way. So, that gives you sort of a system to use in your practice. And the beauty of that is that it fits into your needs. I’ve had athlete said, “When we are trying to learn those skills, you think you go to those thoughts and you get tired. Then you focus your skill technique as you get more and more fatigued.” And like everyone said up here – I’ve stolen this quote, but I always told athletes that the first stage of it is unconscious incompetency. They have no idea that they are doing anything wrong. The next stage is [Indiscernible] [059:24] is conscious incompetency. They know they are doing it wrong but they don’t have any idea how to fix it. And so you keep working with them, and then finally the next stage is you have conscious competency. They can do it right if they are really thinking about it. But what you really want to get to is unconscious competency. They do it without thinking about it. And that process, we all have to go fast but [Indiscernible] [059:52] has to go through all four of those steps. So patience, have a plan and just realize your developmental stages, that’s going to take a long time. I think skills… almost… if a kid knows how to swim well when they’re 10 or 11, then they go away from the sports, for a while they are going to still have… they are going to get this skills or that motto pattern is going to ingrained and you’ve got to bring them back. But if the skills aren’t ingrained, I think you just… there I think there is a lot more [Indiscernible] [060:23] takes longer. So, those are my thoughts.

Male Speaker: So, my conclusion to body position, I think the body position is the most important. It’s like a brick in the house. You never build your house without foundation. Body position is foundation in the water. You won’t have any support as on land that’s why it’s completely different swimming. Different body position then you would experience only. And that’s why there are so many strong athletes on land, such as weightlifters, wrestlers, other sports, but they are not efficient in the water, because they don’t know how to use the strength in the water. They don’t have support. And the best support in the water is your center of mass, which is your body balance in the water. And if you’re focusing on the center of mass in the water, you will be much more efficient and you can use your muscles much more efficiently as well. A lot of athletes are swimming with their arms only, they swim with their arms in order to swim fast. Almost everybody wants to swim with their arms. If I will teach young athletes how to swim, I would not allow to use any arms in the [Indiscernible] [061:38]. Fish doesn’t have arms, and fish does not need arms to swim fast. That’s why we need to learn how to swim from the core without arms first. And once you learn how to swim from the core, then it start working on your kicking because kicking is very important when swimming. It’s not only with propulsion but also your better body position. The stronger your kick, the better body position, the more slime line, the more feet are with the surface and you body is not horizontal. You are swimming fast because you are not creating as much drag in the water. Again body position is everything. Let’s say we have… like [Indiscernible] [0:62:18] gave me many years ago an example, a good example between canoe example and rubber boat. You push a canoe, you push rubber boat with the same force, can you do that forever? You don’t need so much force, just push slightly with one arm only and rubber boat, especially if its not full of [Indiscernible] [0:62:38] you can push as strong as you want, if it’s soft, not rigid, not strong, it will not go out long. So, what’s the difference? Do we need to focus more to be strong in the water or we need to focus more on minimizing drag in the water. I think we need to focus on minimizing the drag. That’s the most optimal approach in swimming. And once you build a good foundation in the water, so then your body will be swimming much faster in the water. Foundation, I mean the body position such as good strong rigid body and as horizontal as possible. We need to look from front view of your swimmer and see very small area that presses the water fall. If area of swimmer is large and swimmer is rotating, creating more frontal drag, that’s not a good body position and athletes will be always fighting the drag. It’s impossible to fight the drag in the water. The water has too much density to fight the drag. On air, you can fight this drag because drag is not high on air. But in the water, drag is so high and that’s why you cannot swim fast with bad body position. And so therefore, the first step in swimming should be to learn how to swim without arms. I would give a lot of exercises for athletes to begin with different rotational exercises from one side to other side without arms and just kicking. Then [Indiscernible] [0:64:06] that’s fine, but they need to learn to avoid using the arms. And once they begin using their arms, they you can use the arms more efficiently. To catch the water well and press the water back, but arms should be used at the last stage of teaching in swimming.

Male Speaker: [Indiscernible] [0:64:31]

Male Speaker: The best thing we have to overcome is exercising [Indiscernible] [0:64:37] working [Indiscernible] [0:64:43] I was six weeks and [Indiscernible] [0:64:48] – [Indiscernible] [0:65:26] it’s fantastic [Indiscernible] [0:65:27] pressure [Indiscernible] [0:65:30] to coaching [Indiscernible] [0:65:38]

Male Speaker: We are running out of time, surely we have some questions and maybe answer [Indiscernible] [0:66:50] couple of minutes but I thank the speakers. Hopefully, you got some information on it. Thank you.

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